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Episode 5

Neighbourhood Resistance and Resilience | Daniel Pardo (ABDT - Barcelona)

On this episode, our guest is Daniel Pardo, an organizer of various neighbourhood organizations in Barcelona, including ABDT (the Assembly of Neighborhoods for Tourism Degrowth). I caught up with Daniel and friend Ana Elia to speak about Barcelona, what has become of it as a result of overtourism and the local struggles against touristification there. We discuss what the COVID-19 pandemic did to Barcelona and what, if anything, we can learn from the Great Pause.

Daniel moved to Barcelona 15 years ago and has since become a passionate activist, investigating and fighting against the exploitation of his city and its people. He is also currently the coordinator of the project Biblioteca de Objetos ("Library of Objects").

We are also joined by Ana Elia, a friend and native of Barcelona who completed her doctorate on gendered social networks in community-based ecotourism projects in Ghana. She is the co-director of CEHDA (cehdaghana.org/en), a migrant and environmental justice organization founded by Ghanaian migrants to support rural resilience in Africa as well as to support migrant people in Catalonia.

This episode is entitled "Neighbourhood Resistance and Resilience in Barcelona."

*******During the recording of this episode there was an issue with the microphone, and so it is somewhat difficult to hear Daniel. We have uploaded all of our episodes including this one along with subtitles if you'd like to follow along there: https://youtu.be/PSj9nEE7oiM *********

The right to fly does not exist. The right to tourism does not exist. This is true: the right to tourism does not exist. And tourism is not sustainable because you can't extend the model of tourism, everybody thinks about, to all the population. It's impossible.
Themes:
A history of ABDT; anti-tourism activism in Barcelona; Sustainable vs Degrowth philosophies; AirBnb in Barcelona, What a tourist city learned during the pandemic; Anti-tourism activism networks in Europe

Show Notes

Daniel’s Story – Arriving in Barcelona, working in tourism degrowth

ABDT (Assemblea de Barris pel Decreixement Turístic) origins, principles, and growth in Barcelona

Tourism activism in politics – Barcelona en Comu

Movement from sustainable tourism to tourism degrowth

What is degrowth tourism and why is it important?

Gentrification and Airbnbification in Barcelona

The right to the city

Assembly / asamblea model of governance and organizing

What, if anything, was learned as a result of the COVID-19 lockdown?

The politics of tourismphobia as tourism industry propaganda

The right to fly and the right to tourism does not exist

Intercity solidarity and work: SETNet (Network of Southern European Cities against Touristification)

Homework

the Assembly of Neighborhoods for Tourism Degrowth / Assemblea de Barris Pel Decreixement Turistic (ABDT)

Website: https://assembleabarris.wordpress.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/AssBarrisDT

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AssBarrisDT/

SETnet Manifesto in Spanish

YouTube: "Daniel Pardo: "Un turismo sostenible no es viable a dia de hoy en Barcelona"

Goethe Institute: Barcelona's Residents Want Their City Back

Transcript

Neighbourhood Resistanceand Resilience - Daniel Pardo (ABDT / Barcelona)



[00:00:00] CHRIS:[00:00:00] So, Barcelona has a long history of hostinginternational tourism events. The world's fair, the Olympic Games,and most recently the Forum of Cultures. As a resident of Barcelona,how have you seen your city change over the course of years ordecades as a result of tourism?

[00:00:20] DANIEL:[00:00:20] I will start by my, so my own experience. Andso when I got to Barcelona like 15 years ago. Well, it was already amass tourism destination, but there were great many differences.Things have got worse and worse in these 15 years. Meaning that themassification of the city has increased quite a lot. But I must saythere's also the other  thing that changed a lot is the fact thatpeople from Barcelona no longer accept this fact as something that isfine. And then we agree, but, um, touristification has become apublic problem since, you can say between five and 10 years, and thisis a solid reality that won't change that easily as it was before.

[00:01:38] In the past, there wasreally no public debate about it and this will keep on happening aslong as touristification keeps in the same degree.  And well, I mean,if we must go back to the years, it's very difficult to explain allthe evolution of tourism in Barcelona. I mean, there's always a veryimportant date to point to. It would be during the (Olympic) Games,but it is also true that during the 80s Barcelona was on anotherlevel, but it was already a touristic place.

[00:02:30]So yeah, there has alwaysbeen, except for the pandemic, there's always been more and moretourism. And this continuous growth of touristification has also beenaccelerating during the time.

[00:03:08] CHRIS:[00:03:08] Daniel, you are an organizer, participant, andleader of the organization, ABDT or the Assembly of Neighborhoods forTourism Degrowth in Barcelona. Could you tell our listeners how ABDTwas formed and what are some of its principles and principle actions?

[00:03:39] DANIEL:[00:03:39] So, in fact it's quite, young organization. Itwas born about six years ago, I would say and somehow it's theconsequence of different things that were happening in the city sinceawhile. I could go back to the beginning of the 21st century. In thattime, there was no public conflict around tourism andtouristification in Barcelona.

[00:04:11]There was just thebeginning of some kind of conflict around tourism rental apartments,long time before Airbnb, but there was already this kind ofaccomodation and some people were complaining about it. It was reallysmall. In that time and for a long time, the only problem observed bymost of the people around these kinds of accommodation was a problemof how to live by this kind of apartments.

[00:04:46] And it was not conceivedas a housing problems and so somehow it's a political problem. Andthis kept on for a while. And then some 6 years later it's the time Igot to Barcelona. And so I can say that in that time, I started toparticipate in some neighborhood organizations here in the center ofthe city.

[00:05:13] And what I saw in thattime was that even without being aware of it, these kinds oforganizations were specializing in touristification. I mean, whenthere was some housing problem, there was a hotel or these kinds ofapartments behind. When they were fighting because of work conflict,it was usually because of a hotel or a bar or something like that. Orthen if there was some kind of urban planning conflict it was becausethis planning was made specifically for a new hotel. And somehowevery kind of problem these organizations were dealing with in thecenter of Barcelona were very often related to touristification.

[00:06:08] But at the time therewasn't a general view, a global view on these problems and the cityas a victim of the touristification process. So, for some  years,these organizations and me with them learned a lot because we wereworking and dealing with this kind of problems every day.

[00:06:31]We started to create amore general critique on, on the issue. Obviously this wasn't onlyhappening in my neighborhood, but also in the one a little farther,that other one maybe a little farther. At some point some of usstarted to think that we needed some kind of coordination space inorder to scale the struggle in the same way that the problem oftouristification does.

[00:07:04] Maybe not in the same waybecause touristification and tourism industry are very global inscale. But at least to struggle at the same scale and no longer justa neighborhood scale.

[00:07:25] Anyway, this took alittle time because we're social movements and we lack of time,always. And so just the fact of thinking of a new coordination space,thinking "Oh no, it's not possible." So for a long time,not for a long time, but for a few years, we just knew it had tohappen, but didn't make it happen.

[00:07:51] And then in 2015, therewere some things that somehow pushed the creation of thiscoordination space. First or all, in the summer of 2014, peoplestarted to see every day, lots of people getting into the buildingswith the box.

[00:08:16] Homes, in La Barceloneta,which is a very popular neighbourhood, are really small. You can heareverything from everyone and they were also very confused that peoplewere being fired out from the homes because of this. And at a certainpoint they couldn't stand it anymore. They just started to gather inthe evening in the square on the main square of the neighborhood tryto find a solution to the problem.

[00:08:49] And they started to marchall around the neighborhood and pointing out the agencies, the realestate agencies that were renting these apartments. And they weredoing this in an incredible number of people. I mean, in the smallneighborhood of about 15,000 people  every night there were between1,000 and 2,000 people on the square. And this kept on for a month ora month and a half every evening. And everybody in the city startedto say, well, "maybe there's something happening here withtourism in the city."

[00:09:38]In 2015 city elections,there were two parties going to these elections which had criticalpoint of view on tourism and touristification in Barcelona, for thefirst time ever. And the city governments in Barcelona, historicallymanaged the city both with the tourism industry for the tourismindustry. And that has always been and understanding between privatetourism sector and public power which is really dangerous, I think,for democracy and for the population of Barcelona. It ruled the cityfor decades.

[00:10:27] So, for the first timethere were two lists saying we are against this tourism model and oneof them took the power. So there were people in the city hall makingpublic speech from a power place. And really critical speech withtourism and touristification, so all these kinds of things started tomake people think.

[00:11:00]The other one, which isprobably the strongest one is just the fact that the verytouristification process became much too hard for people to keep onlyignoring. I mean, who was suffering from the housing problem due totouristification, a walking problem because of touristification? youhad some relative, had some friends, had somebody close who wassuffering from that. And this is the context in which thisorganization was born.

[00:11:40]So we just called peoplewe have known in the previous years from the assemblies on tourism inother neighborhoods, people we have crossed from other associationsand so on. And we told them "well, we'd like to do this, thisprotest  and this thing and everything." So the answer was thesame from everyone and everybody said, "yeah, let's go."But then when this will be done, we'll keep on gathering andpicketing together.

[00:12:12] So this was thebeginning. I mean our reaction, we couldn't believe it because thereaction clearly or passed the proposal we had done. As I think ittoday. I think that was what point things have changed and that ishow it was born. And I can say for at least the first three years ofthe life of ABDT, I mean, I take a look back nowadays and then I justthink, it was amazing.

[00:12:47] CHRIS:[00:12:47] In 2015, the same year that ABDT was founded,the political party 'Barcelona en Comu' was elected on the ticket oflooking to limit tourism in the city. What, if anything, have youseen in regards to the successes of the political parties since theirelection and what do you think have been the limits to achieving thegoals within the political spectrum, within the political partyprocess?

[00:13:18]DANIEL:[00:13:18] So I can only say it was quite the bigdeception. I mean, for six years. So, when they started, they werereally, I won't say "radical," was really far from ourroles, but there were many things we could talk with them and therewere quite many places we could meet. Many ideas we could share, butas the time passed, as these first four years passed, they got softerand softer (in front of the tourism industry).

[00:13:54]The tourism industry madeclear to them that they were very vulnerable in terms of theelections and the votes. They were directly attacked by tourismindustry. And so little by little, they, I don't know if I'd say"gave up," maybe yes. Still, they are more critical thananybody ever was from the city hall in Barcelona. But, this hope thatthere was about six years ago that really helped quite a lot togenerate grassroots movements, this hope is no longer there.

[00:14:35] I mean, everybody knowsmuch more about the consequences of mass tourism in Barcelona. Andthis is good, but I don't know if the chances for change are stillthere. I don't mean they disappeared, but some new things will haveto happen in order to change things.

[00:14:56]CHRIS:[00:14:56] When I was looking at the work of ABDT online,I noticed that the organization was previously called "theAssembly of Neighborhoods for Sustainable Tourism."

[00:15:14] DANIEL:[00:15:14] Yes.

[00:15:14]CHRIS:[00:15:14] And it has since become "the Assembly ofNeighborhoods for Tourism Degree."

[00:15:21] DANIEL:[00:15:21] Yeah.

[00:15:22]CHRIS:[00:15:22] Would you care to offer our listeners Daniel,the differences between de-growth tourism and sustainable tourism,and to tell us why you think that change in name was important forthe organization?

[00:15:34] DANIEL:[00:15:34] Yeah. Yeah, that's quite easy. I mean, we neverbelieved in the possibility of sustainable tourism in the short-termin Barcelona. I mean, this first name was quite fake. Since the wepresented the idea of tourism degrowth, but nobody talked about thatin the city at the time and we didn't want to be just rejectedbecause of ideas. And so it was kind of a balance between what wefelt we were and what we wanted to reflect outside. I mean, we didn'tlike it, but we felt it was a way to start to work and I think it waspositive because I think that quite many people, when they heard usfor the first time they speak of 'sustainable tourism.' The problemwas that we felt more and more comfortable with this I mean, yeah,because of ourselves, but also because we met other organizations sowe'd said, not that we have nothing to do with someone who thinksabout sustainable tourism. To us it's just a label.

[00:16:52]It's a belief that we canwork together. It didn't happen a lot, but there was this kind offeeling and at a certain point we just decided that the label oftourist sustainability that we used really old and old fashionedsince the beginning to now. And on the other hand, we had beenworking with these concepts of tourism degrowth for years, threeyears, and we thought we were ready to change this as we did and Ithink we were right.  

[00:17:28]And about the concepts,the first thing it was really an internal process we did in ourorganization. I mean, I said that we are a coordination space fordifferent neighborhood level associations and collectives. And so wecover a big part of the map of Barcelona. And somehow I feel thatthis is somehow our strength.

[00:17:57] The fact that thisorganization is composed by several individual associations, each oneof which knows very well it's territory and plurality. So what we didwas a very simple diagnose process, which each neighborhood analyzedits situation taking into account the same inputs: accomodations,public space, work, contamination, pollution, whatever. And then, wejust put it all together and we made somehow, an approximation to acity diagnosed with touristification.

[00:18:41] And so the problem's weremore or less the same everywhere, but there were different degrees ofaffectation of these problems. These somehow, it confirmed ourperception, our most intricate perception which was that thing hadbeen going too far for a long time and that the process had to berevised. And this is the place where this concept of tourism degrowthbegins.

[00:19:13]Somebody will say it's notenough to desecrate things. I mean, we just can't keep on growing. Weneed tourism degrowth. We need to take this down. As we started tospeak about the idea, we developed, not even the little details, but,at least with some ideas to to put in practice this concept.

[00:19:41] CHRIS:[00:19:41] To give our listeners some context, where doesthe desire for de-growth come from when sustainability isn't enough,right? The housing crises that, that grip tourist towns or cities, asgenerally a result of gentrification, but tourism plays a huge partin that. Local people can't afford to live in the very places theygrew up in. Their homes turn into Airbnb rentals as I'm sure, youknow, very well. Some people refuse to leave. Both squatting andevictions begin. So, what is it like to live in a city like that,being surrounded often by hordes of tourists and then wondering,coming home, if you can afford the rent for next month or next year?

[00:20:38]DANIEL:[00:20:38] I mean, the first idea that comes to my mind,it's about the character. The whole life becomes much moreprecarious. First of all because many people don't know how long theywill get to stay in the place, but also with this, because even ifyou can stay, maybe your, your people, your friends must leave andthe social precarity. Also because so many shops that we need in ourday-to-day life disappear, or are replaced by things that are notuseful for local people, or impossible to pay them. Also because thejobs are also specialized in tourism which is the most precarioussector in the city of Barcelona.

[00:21:37] And then we have alsomany other problems. Many places in the city and mainly in the centerare really crowded by masses. And then you cannot easily walk fromone place to another. So there are all these kinds of problems, but Ihave to say the human being is very adaptable. For example, La Ramblais a famous avenue in the center. And I think I didn't walk it,truly, for fourteen years because locals don't walk around the area,we just cross it. And then this was our perception, but then somebodymade a study of mobility, studying the profiles of people crossingand walking La Rambla. Why every tourist walks La Rambla from onepoint to another and locals don't do it at all? Not because we don'tlike it. I mean, I've learned that I like it a year ago.

[00:22:47] I never tried to walk itbecause it was really awful and because when you're in your yourcity, if you have time to take your walk it's good but usually you'regoing to places in the same time as you're walking. This kind of,avoiding places, making circles to get to places, it's made by placesyou must avoid and by places you can walk more easily.

[00:23:16] And you can take thiskind of thinking pattern to other things in the city. I mean, I don'tknow, I'm just making it up right now and maybe you don't go shoppingevery day, but then you would go once every two days, because thenyou would suffer less, but you find yourself, fooling yourself toavoid certain things you don't want to assume.

[00:23:45]CHRIS:[00:23:45] Does that ring true for you as well Ana Elia?

[00:23:49] ANA ELIA: [00:23:49] Amen. Yeah, very similar. I avoid placesclearly. There's some neighborhoods where... I've lived for manyyears outside Barcelona. I was living, not in the country and nowthat I've come back I found myself going to the old merceria area, orhow do you call the place where you buy thread?

[00:24:11] And all of these. I wasjust going to Santana and when I went there I was calling my mom,"mom, where is the shop?" It's no more." "No, no,no. They moved it to a smaller place because the real estate was soexpensive there." But that was a place of my grandma, you know,where she would go or a place where they would sell bacalao, verycommon in the more touristy part and my mom said, "oh, let's gobuy this." And when I went there, there was a food workshop orsomething that is like, "who buys these things?" Andclearly it's not, it's not for the person who lives there, no matterwhere you come from and no matter where you're born, is not for thelocal person who makes the life there, take kids to school .

[00:24:55]I used to go with myfriends down to have a drink, or like the typical bar, like with themetal chairs. And now it's all fancy. It's a super fancy. We don't gothere. We don't identify there. I mean, you know, it's not everythingbad, but there are moments that you realize,  I don't recognize thisplace and changes are good, but maybe.

[00:25:22] Some of the changesshould take into account what is good for the people who live theirlives there and want to drink water from the fountain, who want to bequiet at night and, and walk around the street? And, but yeah, verysimilar to what Daniel is saying.

[00:25:40]CHRIS:[00:25:40] I'm reminded of a concept which is "theright to the city" (el derecho a la ciudad). And I'm curious ifthat's something that's utilized in the philosophies of ABDT Daniel.

[00:25:56] DANIEL:[00:25:56] Yeah. We don't usually use the term, but weknow the concept and it's very related to our way of thinking. I mustinsist you won't find it often in our texts. It's interesting to see,it's the concept that can easily include the right to housing and ourstruggle. It's a very usual alliance and so this is a concept thatfits very well because it can take both of them in the same time.

[00:26:34]CHRIS:[00:26:34] Thank you.

[00:26:36]This might be new to me,but, it seems that, ABDT like other social movements, especially herein Oaxaca used the public forum or "asemblea" model ofmeeting in decision-making. I would love it if you could offer ourlisteners a little bit about how the assemblies work and how they'veinfluenced the organization and its actions.

[00:27:00] DANIEL:[00:27:00] Yeah. I mean, yeah, we're, we're an assembly,but somehow we're not an assembly of individuals, but an assembly ofcollectives. So since the beginning we thought that if we chose ahigh meeting frequence, I mean, once a week or something like that,we wouldn't live long. Since the beginning we met once a month. Foryears this happened. Physically, we met in a place, the first Mondayof every month. Since the pandemic we've been doing this via videoconference and for the rest of the time we just contact and talkmainly through mail, through email. Okay. And so the interestingthing is working like that you don't need everyone to be in theassembly. You just need a minimum of one for every neighbourhoodorganization. We have, a list of the subjects to, to deal with, whichare shared before and which is constructed collectively.

[00:28:23]By its own, everyassociation takes a position on these things, which is taken to theassembly by one or two or three people. When there is a debate,sooner or later, the global position is clear.

[00:28:41]There's not really fightsor competitions to win a decision.  So we work mainly like that.Then, this is for the assembly. Then when there are important issues,maybe for an action, it may be working on the amends to a new law orbecause we're organizing an event created specifically for precisegoal.

[00:29:12]The assembly is, I wouldsay, classical model. It has its faults, which are mainly not bigspeed but on the other hand, the decisions we take are quite solid.

[00:29:27] CHRIS:[00:29:29] I'm curious what the plague did to Barcelona asa result in Barcelona as a tourist city. We know that, uh, tourismmore or less died temporarily during that time on a global scale. Butwhat happened in Barcelona and what lessons can we learn from theyear in which tourism was put on pause?

[00:29:55]DANIEL:[00:29:55] We didn't learn a thing. The thing we learned,we knew it, we knew that. I mean, somehow it just served to confirmwhat we've been saying for years, which is, there's an excessivedependence of the city economy on tourism and this is dangerous. Andwe always repeat the same thing.

[00:30:22] 2017. there was aterrorist attack on La Rambla and everybody was really scared that itwould stop tourism in Barcelona. And suddenly people started, peoplenot us, even the tourism sector, starting to talk about diversifying,about searching for other models. We were really amazed andsurprised. This lasted for two or three months until tourism justrecovered.

[00:31:05]Well, so it's three yearslater, we passed the past three years saying what happened with thisidea of diversifying, of searching for other things and nobody caredabout it.

[00:31:23]So, in the pandemic,tourism stopped and there was nothing recovered. Nobody said, wecouldn't know. All we can say is "we don't care." And theycan say we don't care because I mean, they do care. They do careabout money. That takes the worst part of people working this sectorwhich is monopolizing the economy of the city and also the jobs. They're doing all they can to get back to what it was even if it wasa disaster. Even though the climate emergency is more than evidentthan ever.

[00:32:17] But everybody inBarcelona is talking about the airport extension, about a biggerairport. So, they don't want to learn.

[00:32:29]ANA ELIA: [00:32:29] I'm curious about a question for Daniel.

[00:32:32] CHRIS:[00:32:32] Please, please go ahead.

[00:32:33] ANAELIA: [00:32:34] Given that the citizens in Barcelona, wegot used a little bit these past months to live with less tourism,that we are able to walk freely through a park that we usually haveto do huge lineups or that we got the chance over the past months towalk a little bit of La Ramblas. You know, we experienced somethingthat for many years we haven't experienced. Do you think there's anopportunity now that people have embodied a little bit, a lifewithout tourism, that now when all the monster comes back again thatwe're going to be able to speak from the contrast that we'll havemore critical mass again, for some time before we numb ourselves tounite forces and say, "Hey, this is crazy," again or youthink this will just go unseen and you know, there's no opportunitynow from the contrast that is coming up?

[00:33:33] DANIEL:[00:33:33] So, I don't have a clear answer because thetouristification process has been a very progressive thing. I mean,they have been taken our city little by little and suddenly we got itback. Looking back with our own problems. I mean, many people withoutwork, many people without a home, enormous problems, but for awhilethe city got back to us.

[00:34:05] And this is a feeling,that for example, I hadn't known in Barcelona, that people I know whowere born here, hadn't known for decades, and there's a big deal ingetting back those places and the city. And to me, there's a hope inthe fact that if things change back too quickly, people can reallyfeel very angry and maybe also know how to organize. But, on theother hand, the economic situation makes it very easy for the lobbiesto say, uh, "well, sorry to bother, but that doesn't function,and do we have another idea?" "No." "So let'smake tourism." These will be the deal.  

[00:35:02]CHRIS:[00:35:04] I've wondered about this quite a bit alsoliving in a tourist town here in Oaxaca, and what happens if tourismdisappears tomorrow and if our inability to come to that question asa blessing happens as a result of our lack of imagination or the lossof imagination?

[00:35:26]In Barcelona, you know acity with at least in pre-pandemic numbers, something like 30 milliontourists each year in a city that has 1.6 million residents. In everypossible understanding of the word, this is unsustainable and whatoften happens, or seems to be happening now is a rise in, what'soften referred to as tourism phobia, or the fear of the stranger(xenophobia) because certainly in the last 10 years in SouthernEurope, along the Mediterranean coast, there's a huge amount ofrefugees entering Europe, as well as tourists. And, in some placesthere's a hatred for the refugee in some places there's hatred orfear of the tourist.

[00:36:18] And so I imagine you bothsee this in Barcelona and I wonder, how can movements like ABDT workto degrow tourism while not feeding the fire of racism or xenophobia?

[00:36:44]DANIEL:[00:36:44] We ourselves, we've suffered often attacks ofbeing pointed like tourismphobics. We have to use too much time toexplain it and deny. And in fact, our conclusion is that, in fact,tourismphobia does not exist. It's just a propaganda campaign fromthe tourism sector in order to deviate the attention, you know. As bychance, this concept and this campaign happens in the moment when thedemon of the tourism industry is being questioned strongly in manyplaces in Southern Europe. And by chance, in that moment, theystarted to talk about tourismphobia. And as it happens as ithappened, usually very often in the history, following a very usualpattern, which is blaming the victims.

[00:37:56] I mean, it's funny withthe hotel owner telling me it's my fault. It's because of me andpeople like me. But one thing I must say. One thing we always say iswe're not against tourism just because. We are against this volume oftourism because it's too much, because the economy of the city is toomuch concentrated.

[00:38:27] And if we weren't atouristified city, but the city was exploited by a petrol platform,we would probably be fighting against the petrol industry. And thisis the idea, the kind of industry, we don't choose it because thecity has been chosen by the industry to make profit and it's beenexploitated as if it was petrol. So, the important thing is, comingback to turismophobia, I understand perfectly someone who issuffering from touristification, because of the noise in the night,because people are being fired from their neighborhood, because theirlife is getting worse and worse.

[00:39:23] And I can understand thepeople who turn against tourists, because I think it's a naturalreaction, but I think this has been a major role of ABDT over theyears is to explain to people they should point their anger and theirstrength against the industry and not against tourists. This is moredifficult because it's much easier to talk bad about tourists or evento insult them. But this will never produce a change.

[00:40:10]And so the important thingis to turn against the true guilty of the situation, of those trulyresponsible.

[00:40:23] CHRIS:[00:40:23] Tourism, to me, seems like an industryfundamentally based, both in consumption and specifically in a way ofevading responsibility, personal or otherwise. If that's the case, doyou think the industry can be improved or do we have to beginimagining completely different ways of traveling or other ways oflearning about other places?

[00:40:54] DANIEL:[00:40:54] So to me, I mean, yeah, we should change ourway of tourism consumption. I've done it myself, but to me, this isnot the point. It's not about consumption, it's about production andto me the focus must go towards production. And it's about publiccontrol of private sector, based on democratic decisions by thepeople. And people might have all the information they need, in orderto choose. It's good to talk about that and to join that debate, butI think that the problem's quite more urgent. And I think that publicadministrations must really control the tourism markets.

[00:41:49]It's hard to say that, butI mean, the right to fly does not exist. The right to tourism doesnot exist. This is true: the right to tourism does not exist. Andtourism is not sustainable because you can't extend the model oftourism, everybody thinks about, to all the population. It'simpossible.

[00:42:15]We are living and we aretouring and we are flying very, very longer than the possibilitiesallow. Now, the possibilities are the ones of our planet. And we'lltalk mainly about the effects of touristifcation in the city, buttalking about the planet, tourism is one of the main producers of CO2emissions. So. It's not "what should we do?" The planet istelling us what to do and we are not listening at all.

[00:42:55]CHRIS:[00:42:55] Thank you, Daniel.

[00:42:58]So for our last question,I'd like to ask you about the other movements that you've met in yourtime with ABDT. What kind of solidarity with other, similar movementsfor de-growth tourism, have you encountered and is there workhappening between them?

[00:43:17] DANIEL:[00:43:17] There has been. We didn't have the time tostrengthen this network as much as we would have liked, but there'sthis work that was done. There's a network and there are so manymarvelous people that I have the chance to meet in Southern Europe.Two years ago, we formed a network well called South European AgainstTouristification (SETNet). We've met physically twice, once here .

[00:43:55] And there were grassrootsmovements from Lisbon, Porto, Sevilla, Majorca, Cannaries, Valencia,Madrid, Barcelona, San Sebastian. From Italy there was Naples, Rome,Milan, Geneva, maybe some other one from the south. There was about25 cities from the citizen territories from the South Europe. And notall of them were totally active, but all of them were interested inknowing what was happening. It was funny to know why we chose thisname: South Europe. There's a geopolitical, shared condition in thesouth of Europe. which is related to what was called, for some years,the PIGS: Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain, which were the bad behavingcountries in Europe, macro economically speaking, which are thecountries that most suffer because of the crisis of 2008 and whichhave been becoming the holiday park of the first world or the globalnorth.

[00:45:17] I mean, it's a collectivethought: we haven't been thinking about why we chose this area, thisregion as an identity, but the moment when somebody pointed on me, itwas very natural to explain to ourselves that there was this culturalidentity related to the role we say we are playing in Europe and inthe world. The fact that these counties have been suffering theeconomical crisis in a stronger way than others, I think it isrelated to the fact that it's becoming an invasion park.

[00:46:02] Because how can youbetter exploit a territory in this touristification way? Well, peopleare suffering from the crisis. They're probably willing to stand itmore than they were.

[00:46:20] CHRIS:[00:46:20] Wow. Well, it must be something to know as acollective and as individuals and as residents of cities in SouthernEurope that you're not alone, that there are others with theirstrategies and work together on a regional basis and not just on alocal basis.

[00:46:44]Well that brings us to theend of the interview. Ana Elia, do you have anything to add or ask?

[00:46:53]ANAELIA: [00:46:53] I'm very grateful for having been mostlywitnessing this conversation, learning plenty from Daniel, and I'mvery glad for the work that you do on it. It's super inspiring. Andas a citizen here, you know, makes me want to do more. So thank youso much. And thank you, Chris, for drawing this conversation intohappening.

[00:47:17] CHRIS:[00:47:17] Well, may this be an opportunity for ourlisteners to know that there's people in the world who are workingand honoring their cities and their towns and their cultures in goodways. And that they're not alone. And you know, whether you're peoplewho work in the tourism industry, whether you're tourists or whetheryou're activists this is an example of what we can learn from. Sothank you, Daniel for joining us today. And thank you both for yourwillingness to speak and to speak in English in languages, not yourmother tongue.

[00:48:02] Thank you again, Daniel.

[00:48:04]DANIEL:[00:48:04] Thanks to you, my pleasure.

[00:48:06]CHRIS:[00:48:06] Blessings on your day and your holiday today.



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